An inquiry to the "best"?

When we were looking at the idea of upgrading our Jayco to something that would last for the rest of our travelling days, we thought we'd try to find out more about Bushtracker's land yachts.

Various caravan forums mentioned them as something that other van builders should aspire to, so we thought it would be good to find out more about what some considered to be the best.

What follows below is the e-mail trail of the exchanges between Bushtracker and me.

My initial inquiry was via the webform on their website. I do not have a copy of the text, but it was just a couple of sentences asking for more specific information on their product and that we ideally wanted something about 20 feet and had a towing capacity of 2700kg. I sent it on the 26th December.

Steven's initial responses looked like standard globs of text which sang the praises of his product rather than answering any of my questions.

We did not want either a tiny van nor to convert our vehicle into a truck. He did not build larger variations of his vans that weighed less. The exchange should have been that short and direct and stopped there.

 Initial response

I was extremely impressed to receive the following e-mail complete with copies of the photos from the Bushtracker Website the very next day. None of our questions were answered, but there certainly was a lot of information there.

We do not make comments that would bag other Manufacturers, as the energy should be spent in showing you how our vans are better.  We will say however, that our Competitors seem to be content to copy the style of "Off-Road" rather than do the hard yards to correct the weaknesses that normal caravans have in travelling the Outback. This only fools the people that don't know what they are looking at. We operate from a different perspective and have engineered the entire van to suit the Outback, and if you come here to see the bones for yourself in the Factory, you will know for yourself that we really have no Competitors.

As to second hand Bushtracker caravans: The problem is that some people will pay more new value not to have to wait for one to be built.  To wait for one second hand that has a layout that you like, and an equipment list that you want, could be a very long wait indeed, it is just impractical.  We build "land yachts" to last a lifetime.   Just about everyone that sold Second hand in the last few years has turned a profit.  Not only do they tell us about it, but about fifteen people have sold their vans to get a larger one built - In the last two years alone that I can think of, and they almost all turned a profit!!  I think the people are Mad to pay more than new and not get their choice of colours, the gear list tailored to their own needs, the layout they want, and pay more than new just to not have to wait??  Madness !! I would say from the experiences of those who have waited up to six months for the right one to come along, that secondhand chances are slim to none.  I will carry on with some more general goodies of information that will interest you. Size and layouts can be determined here. You will know more when you can walk through a dozen vans and get a feel for what really suits you.  We have layouts and equipment from the marine industry that you will not see anywhere else. These are "Land Yachts" for their self-sufficiency and independence in lifestyle and travel, and here you will possibly get some ideas that you had not thought of before.

As to weights, the Toyota, the 100 series, 80 series, and the Nissan Patrol, are our most common tow vehicles, with Discoveries and Rovers in third place. For larger vans, Ford is now back in the Country with a fabulous big 7.3 Diesel that gets good fuel economy towing and may take over the number one spot in the next few years.  Ford even has a smaller 4.2 Turbo Intercooled that out pulls the Toyota Turbo.  On the matter if what weight you can expect to tow, you should be wary of some of the claims made. Others will often print some stupid weights that are not realistic, because they weigh them before the installation of the "optional equipment". The worst we have encountered is a Customer who bought a "looks the part" that fools the City People- 4x4 van that had a stamped tare of 1680, and came in finished weighing 2120 kg? They had obviously weighed it with no gear in it all all. We weigh them with the major gear you picked, solar panels-batteries etc, on board, where Others will call it "Owners Cargo" and weigh the van before installing that gear.

We can tell you that in reality, all the vans built with the "look of off-road" are close in weight. In general, the wood frame builders are heavier than our vans with aircraft style frames, from the trailer assembly up. They have to have larger wood beams across the roof to support the airconditioners and such. We are lighter from the wall frames up. We are heavier from the trailer assembly down because of the body armour and the military suspension. Overall we are the same weight, our weight is just on the underside rather than the top in walls and roof. Because of that, in the Bushtracker the center of gravity is lower than with the rest. In 18', if you put a lot of gear on board, you can expect to be at about 2.3 tonne. In the 20', with a lot of gear, expect to be at around 2.5 tonne. Allow more for extra water tanks and such that will push your overall loaded weight over the 2.5 tonne mark. However, rolling on 16" truck tyres and wheels and our military independent suspension is a lot easier than rolling on the caravan junk, and weight is not such an issue. Windage and aerodynamic profile is probably a more relevant concern.

After talking with you about gear and style of travel,  we can get a group of layouts for you to work with.  Normally, then you would take them away and cut and paste similar to what I do on the computer, to alter the layout to your own tastes.  Layouts do not affect the price. Layouts should really be your last concern, as you can have anything you want that works, and can even play with your layout for nearly six weeks after you are in Contract. When we play "20 questions", we can come closer to your layout.  When we know what hobbies interest you, a computer work-station with Sat-com up-link for managing you business and e-mail in the bush. or a freezer hold for Barramundi. Or maybe a workbench and charging system for Minelab gold detecting equipment.  These things and mode of travel and sleeping accommodations and tow vehicle choice, etc will affect layout choices of samples that I can send away with you.  We will probably have some gear and layout possibilities you have not thought of.  The layout samples you see on the Internet site, are just that: Samples. There will be another dozen variations or more for each one you see on the Internet site. . You can double click on them to blow them up and have bit of a play, just know that there are many more possibilities and those are just the beginning.  We allow considerable time to coach you through the process, as your success in achieving your planned lifestyle is our success and will sell us more vans as you happily travel around.

Most of our Customers just want a high quality touring van that will hold together on some of our rough bitumen roads.  After owning a Bushtracker they end up having the confidence to get off the main tracks and do a bit of exploring on their own. Most of our Clients have said, that they did not think they were going to remote 4x4 access places, more just general touring and dirt roads. But after finding out just how crowded the main Tourist Destinations really were, within six months or so they found themselves in a lot more remote regions than they thought! They discovered that the "Best of Australia" is not on the maps because the Government cannot afford to improve the roads in there, and also cannot afford to have to rescue poorly equipped Tourists broken down in there with the wrong gear and equipment. These are places that the Locals know about, and that is why you don't see many Locals in the Tourists Destinations. They have there own places, often better places, and not on the maps!!! You meet them in your travels, and soon find yourself going further with more confidence in your equipment and discovering the Bushtracker country of the "Real Australia".

On the matter of what equipment you may want.  You need to understand that we offer a range of gear and equipment that no one else in Australia even offers.  The rest are about building the look or the style of "Off-Road", while we are about building the real bones of off road travel in the Outback.  What level of gear you need is up to how self-sufficient and independent you really want to be. However, you may not be aware of some of the gear and lifestyle that is listed in our brochure on the Internet Site, so please have a study of that for your own benefit. We would probably suggest that you get away from the normal caravan junk and into some proper expedition grade equipment.  (In addition to the normal package of Standard Equipment we include per our brochure on the Internet, which is already the best-equipped caravan in Australia), you might want to include some of the following:

PRICING FOR YOU TO CONSIDER, ON EXPEDITION GRADE EQUIPMENT:

a.. Full ensuite, which includes the following:

1.   Hot water service, we use the best, with an outside service door and 23-litre capacity storage tank plus the quick recovery feature.
 2.. Thetford Cassette toilet, the European model with the locking outside service door water tight and dust proof, it is just the best available, sealed and hygienic from the interior of the van, and fully serviced from the outside with a removable cassette. It is the best.
3.. The Marine Grade Flojet pump, of course, and an extra tank for two 82-litre water tanks just for the ensuite. 
4.. Internal showers, built by a boat hull builder, not the cheaper materials like some others use.
5.. Also a watertight door and linen locker accessible from the ensuite, we build the best possible.
      This full ensuite adds  $4900 to the cost.

·         Electronic remote control ignition on the Hot Water Service so you don't have to go outside in bad weather to light the pilot...    $250 ·         12" commercial brakes instead of the normal caravan brakes.  It is not only a performance problem with the normal caravan brakes, it is a maintenance problem.  The Outback people hate normal 10" caravan brakes, as on the corrugation the magnet wears severely on the actuating arm until it wears through and falls off into the drum ruining the lot.  The 12" brakes out perform on both accounts. And these are a two piece hub-drum to take bigger bearing, bigger axle shaft, and bigger brakes.  Cost: $500 (Machining of the military suspension to accept the 12" commercial brakes, and the larger backing plates, brakes, etc )

·         United Nations grade Compressor drive fridge-freezer systems instead of the caravan refrigeration which struggles in the tropics and most of our Clients do not care for.  We use the leader in the industry, Danfoss compressor drive, Email American box, front controls, and an interior light. If you see it you will recognise it as the best.  140 litre - $1000, 190 litre with a 50 litre freezer on top runs $1300, 220 litre (excessive) $1500.

·         Potable and non-potable water systems, a split water system with separate locking water fillers, separate tanks, separate pumps and taps, to use a local source of water for the water you waste which is about 98%. This allows you to renew that water on a weekly basis from any local source, while conserving your drinking water for a long time. This system costs $700.

·         We give out two tanks with a complete ensuite.  Extra tanks run $390 each with stoneguards, separate fillers, separate vents and taps and drains, plumbed into manifold selection.  I suggest three tanks total as a minimum, you don't have to run around with them all full, but can use them as needed.

·         Or the complete water sterilisation system for independence. According to your needs.  This system is a high-pressure system to fill your tanks with purified and sterilised water as needed.  It involves an external hatch, pre-filtration with a high-pressure pump and reusable ceramic cleanable filtration, high-pressure secondary carbon filtration for chemicals like trace pesticides or herbicides, and then 2700-angstrom ultra-violet in a stainless housed sterilisation unit.  This costs $2500 installed and requires an inverter for use off solar.

·         A complete solar system for sure, engineered to deliver the level of independence that you may require.  We use high grade Japanese solar panels (Kyocera - highest rated by industry standards in Australia) in various sizes to match you power needs, wired to van and vehicle to use the surplus for charging the tow vehicle if you have an additional fridge in it. Most do carry one for day trips and to bring home groceries.  Our solar systems are designed to help make you independent in the bush for your power needs.  Our normal average system would run $2800 installed, with 240 watts of solar.

There are cheaper panels that we can use that would save about 5% in cost, but have a heat dissipation problem you can see in their technical data sheets that causes a 24% fall off in the power curve in hot weather.  We can talk to you about that if you like, but cheaper is not always cost efficient, and this is a good example.

·         A Morningstar Regulator, the big ones come with monitoring system and digital readout with five seconds delay from 1) Battery voltage 2) Array current (which is solar input) and 3) Total load current.  It does an automatic 5 second scan of each continuously, plus a full featured automatic regulated battery charging system and disconnect system, as well as a battery condition continuous led display.  American top quality marine gear for the Bush.  A 20 amp system installed will run $540, and 30 amp is $570 (installed).

·         Air conditioning, we use all three major types, but one has performed the best in the Bush, it is not the cheapest but has always outperformed the others for durability - $2450.

·         Awnings, we can have you pick from all three major brands, but our favourite comes ready made to add walls on, with full zippers and closure flaps, come stock with storm rafters and can take four times the wind of the others.  Average installed cost runs $1650 depending on size.

·         Inverters, we have five sizes, from the cheap synthetic square wave units to high grade professional sine-wave units as your needs dictate. Some people want to run computers or satellite down links for the Internet, or microwaves and TVs.  People have different needs and this determines the size from about $250 up to $2450 for pure sinewave with automatic switching to all outlets at 1000 watt to run microwaves and larger equipment. We also include large circuit breaker safety devices at the batteries.

·         We have three levels of batteries from the normal Australian deep cycle batteries up to the higher level maintenance free batteries.  American calcium-calcium maintenance free 100% duty cycle (about a 5 year design life) $150 upgrade, up to the high end German gel-cell solar block which is a ten year design life higher efficiency battery ($300 upgrade).  We do not flog gear, we are one of the rare groups that actually have the engineering education to design solar and power systems to suit your needs rather than just sell you gear.

·         Range hoods, a real one with dust seal hatch outside that actually blows the flap open and keeps out the bull dust when you are travelling on the dirt tracks, and light.  This costs $500 but is usually unnecessary if we get you into the right layout style with a window on one side and maybe the door on the other.

·         Battery charging systems, we offer a marine grade fully electronic automatic battery charger, but we also offer larger chargers to condense down the charging time and dual mode chargers to increase battery life. This is a very good cost effective upgrade in 25 to 35 amp ranging from $375 to $575. You may not need it, we have to ascertain your particular needs, and then advise you accordingly.  It may be worth considering for the advantage of being able to plug in for a short time at a Station or Pub or Roadhouse in longer periods of bad weather; instead of all night on a mains power.  We can talk about it when you are here.

·         You can get into other exotics that may be unnecessary or might appeal to you.  You have to see some of it here, things like outside showers in locking hatches, cargo doors for external storage, screen rooms, and other lifestyle amenities which can be geared up to suit your own individual needs.

What other needs you may have are up to you, we offer general touring self sufficient equipment up to a level of expedition grade equipment, that no one else in Australia even offers. With all of our Normal Inclusions as listed on the Internet Site, the Base Price on an 18' is $50,000 and you add your selections from above.   As to the Gear Selections from above, we can give some advice on how much of it you need when we talk more about what level of self-sufficiency and independence that you want to achieve. We can give you a fair evaluation.

My point is that we excel from our suspension to our aircraft style wall frames, and we build all together the best caravan in Australia; but we also have an enormous range of gear and equipment that no one else even offers and you will have to see it for yourself.  What we are really talking about is a level of gear and equipment matched to the level of personal freedom and independence that you require.  We really have no Competitors in Australia.

We have the only military independent suspension that has actually passed the Army's proving ground and is under military contract, you owe it to yourself to see it before you make the mistake of buying anything else. From that-to the way we do the frames will impress you.  Most of the industry is still building wood exterior frames, and the cladding sweats as the sun goes down.  The dew point drop in air temperature condenses moisture and humidity out of the air on the inside of the cladding as well as outside because all wall cladding in Australia is in interlocking strips.  No matter how you try and treat wood frames this is a long term problem with wood swelling, dry-rot, fungus, etc.  Of the ¼ of the industry that is building aluminium frames, they are building with too light of material and light punch rivets; the way they do things gives the wood frame builders the evidence to claim that aluminium frames are no good!  Instead of 1mm "C" channel they use, we use 2.5 and 3 mm full box section lapped into 3mm angle and diagonally countersunk rivets aircraft style and welded on both the other sides.  Our frames will flex like an aircraft wing but the joints do not move.  Without a doubt, we have the strongest and most durable frames in Australia, and some claim the world.  Again, the point I am making is that you owe it to yourself to see what we are doing in person before you make any mistakes buying something else. I will also attach some more pictures you might enjoy. I would like to suggest that you study our brochure on the Internet a bit more, and schedule a visit to the Factory as soon as possible; here you will be impressed with what you see. Be aware that it takes time to build a custom van to the highest quality.  You may need to think about Booking your own Delivery Slot as soon as possible if scheduling is important.  That is the only penalty for being #1, they tend to keep us Booked up a bit.  The best is worth waiting for.  Many of our Clients who could not wait and bought what the Competition has on to offer, have come back later and said: "Right, well we can wait now."  No one builds a van like we do; we really have no Competitors in Australia.  I will have some suggestions for you that we can discuss when you are here. They will only be suggestions that you can consider, based on thirty years of travel in vans, but they may appeal to you when you see how well they work in person.  Our basic aim is to make you self-sufficient and securely "at home" in the bush.

Best regards, Steven T. Gibbs,

Bushtracker

So what do we know so far?

The indications in Steven's mail were that the weight looked to be okay for a 20 foot van, but it wasn't clear. What exactly was a "20 foot van with a lot of gear in it" that Steven had mentioned in his mail? The way it was worded made it sound like the van was fully loaded and ready for an extended holiday. If he had clearly stated that an empty 20 foot van weighed at least 2500kg, our mail exchange would have stopped there.

From having done a little research previously on the towing capacities of vehicles and having Steven mention Nissan Patrol - I knew that an automatic Patrol has a limit of 2500kg, so there was no reason to think we had unreasonable expectations as we could tow 2700kg.

Steven had included some indicative pricing for an 18 foot van and for a lot of extras that people usually wanted. How much more would the 20 foot version cost?

  More information please

From: Mike [mailto:mbg@bigpond.net.au]
Sent: Saturday, 27 December 2003 10:57 PM
To: Bushtracker
Subject: RE: Bushtracker Lifestyle

From: Mike [mailto:mbg@bigpond.net.au]
Sent: Monday, 29 December 2003 10:24 PM
To: Bushtracker
Subject: FW: Bushtracker Lifestyle
Importance: High

It was holiday season after all, so it made sense why there had been no earlier response when the reply did come:

From: Bushtracker [mailto:sales@bushtracker.com]
Sent: Thursday, 1 January 2004 5:36 PM
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Bushtracker Lifestyle

Hello Mike and Shona,

Steven Gibbs here, Director, Bushtracker

Yes, I left my computer off for a week, and wasn't that nice, except for today when I switched it on to find 95 Emails...... Ha!   So, here it is New Years Day, and I am a bit fuzzy but returning the mail....

Now as to weights, our vans weigh the same as our so called competitors, except that we offer gear and equipment that no one else offers, for independence and self sufficiency.... The kind of people that would get on the BOG site, are the kind of thorough people that would take it all and then some more that they wanted themselves....  We are talking about 300 kgs of extra gear that some have.... 4 of the Gaston sealed AGM maintenance free batteries would weigh 120 kg just on their own.... And the kind of Clients that would take the time to wade into the BOG site, are the kind that would go for four...  It is only a small percentage of our Clients on that site, but they are the ones that are meticulous and thorough and would rather err on over equipped side than be wanting more later...  Now how does this relate to you and a BMW????

As to weights, the Toyota, the 100 series, 80 series, and the Nissan Patrol, are our most common tow vehicles, with Discoveries and Rovers in third place. For larger vans, Ford is now back in the Country with a fabulous big 7.3 Diesel that gets good fuel economy towing and may take over the number one spot in the next few years.  Ford even has a smaller 4.2 Turbo Intercooled that out pulls the Toyota Turbo.  On the matter if what weight you can expect to tow, you should be wary of some of the claims made. Others will often print some stupid weights that are not realistic, because they weigh them before the installation of the “optional equipment”. The worst we have encountered is a Customer who bought a “looks the part” that fools the City People- 4x4 van that had a stamped tare of 1680, and came in finished weighing 2120 kg? They had obviously weighed it with no gear in it all all. We weigh them with the major gear you picked, solar panels-batteries etc, on board, where Others will call it "Owners Cargo" and weigh the van before installing that gear.

We can tell you that in reality, all the vans built with the “look of off-road” are close in weight. In general, the wood frame builders are heavier than our vans with aircraft style frames, from the trailer assembly up. They have to have larger wood beams across the roof to support the airconditioners and such. We are lighter from the wall frames up. We are heavier from the trailer assembly down because of the body armour and the military suspension. Overall we are the same weight, our weight is just on the underside rather than the top in walls and roof. Because of that, in the Bushtracker the center of gravity is lower than with the rest. In 18’, if you put a lot of gear on board, you can expect to be at about 2.3 tonne.  In the 20’, with a lot of gear, expect to be at around  2.5 tonne… Allow more for extra water tanks and such that will push your overall loaded weight over the 2.5 tonne mark. Then your personal gear can add another 300-500 kg (depending on how many tanks you have,) when you also fill up with water....

There is really an issue here that needs to be dealt with, on maximum size of Bushtracker to be put behind a BMW... And it is not what you might think...  It is not about power..

First of all you need to understand how we operate... A Salesman of other companies might just tell you what he thinks you want to hear.   You may not always like our honest feedback but it will be in your own best interests. We will treat you fairly, not just tell you what you want to hear and send you on your way. We will try and take care of you, and tell you what you really need to know for a very good reason.. Our Customers are the ones selling more than half of our vans for us now, as we really make an effort to do the right thing by them for their own best interests.. Why? We are Number One for two reasons, firstly we have the Best Product, the Best Engineering, the Best Equipment, and the nicest interiors and finish of them all !!  And secondly we look after our Clients Best Interests, because it is really in our own Best Interests to do so!!  We invest ourselves in their own success, achieving the Lifestyle they want, and taking care of them; because it becomes our best Interests and sells more vans for us as they happily travel around.   We also have the advantage of not just a personal opinion, but we stay in touch with our Customers and can tell you the experiences of  500 more that have gone on before you…. 

So here is the real issue on 20’: It is not about off-road, all four wheel drives are a tractor in low range gear off the road.  It is more of a safety concern on the highway... The BMW is not a full sized tow vehicle on the global perspective, only here...

It is an issue of the length of wheelbase for leverage at high speed, when you have to make a radical maneuver to avoid an accident or a spilled load or a Bullock or something...  The wheelbase of the BMW runs out of safety margin somewhere around 20’ ... Even my own 2000 Landcruiser is up on its maximum limit with my 21’ van.  It is just just not safe if something happens to cause a radical move at 100 kph..  There is just not enough leverage to do it safely with the wheelbase of a Landcruiser, and that is where the F-250 or F-350 Ford, or Chev or Dodge trucks really shine.  Incidentally , they get better mileage when towing as well.   So, with your best interests in mind, you are safer with a limit closer to 16’ than 20’ with your BMW.  There is a reason they have set the tow capacity down that low, when a Landcruiser is more than a tonne higher capacity....  And even six inches of wheelbase is a lot....  You may have to scale back your ideas to 16-17'

    Now in saying that there is one more consideration.  We have layouts and equipment from the marine industry that you will not see anywhere else. These are “Land Yachts” for their self-sufficiency and independence in lifestyle and travel, and here you will possibly get some ideas that you had not thought of before with regards to size.   In summary, you need to make a visit here to see it; as what we have here, you cannot get anywhere else.  We just do it better in every single facet.  We really do have the best engineering, the best equipment, the best interior finishes, and the best layouts.  We really have no Competitors, but you are going to have to break down and come here to see it so you will know for yourself.

Cheers from Bushtracker

When 30 millimetres makes ALL the difference

I was a little bit thrown by this as I thought it was reasonably clear that we were more than happy with our tow vehicle, and were asking what the recommendation was for what it could tow. As we have 21' now, we weren't looking at shrinking into something vastly smaller, but maybe the weight could be reined back somewhere? The original mail from Bushtracker stated that the "20', with a lot of gear, expect to be at around  2.5 tonne" so we didn't believe it was unreasonable to think that a vehicle with 2.7 tonne towing ability was not feasible. Steven had only just in this e-mail enlightened us that "a lot of gear" was fitments to the van rather than things we put in it. This was the first time it was evident that 2.5 tonne for 20' was a conservative empty weight.

Telling us that it was wheelbase rather than just power which made a difference in towing safety was fine, but Steven picked a bad example stating that his vehicle which is 30 millimetres longer in wheelbase was towing a 21' Bushtracker and our vehicle could only cope with a van 5' shorter.

The reason that BMW have stated a maximum towed weight of 2700kg is due to the monocoque construction they tell me. Interestingly VW's Touareg is also monocoque and they have a stated maximum tow weight of 3500kg, but only 140kg of that can be on the towball (which means a maximum tow weight of 1400kg to conform to the rule of thumb 10% on the towball?). All of the vehicles with a higher towing rating than the X5 have a full chassis.

The reason you talk to a person about their product is to gain confidence in them and what they are selling. When that person tells you things that you know are not right, confidence in them and their wares dissolves instantly. My reply was with this in mind...

From: Mike [mailto:mbg@bigpond.net.au]
Sent: Friday, 2 January 2004 6:48 PM
To: Bushtracker
Subject: RE: Bushtracker Lifestyle

Hi Steven Gibbs,

Commiserations on having to address 95 e-mails, but congratulations on all that possible business for your company!

I had been impressed with what I was reading about your product, but you’ve succeeded in sewing doubts in my mind when you start to talk down an X5! You may not have salespeople, but you set out to SPIN a yarn or two yourself it seems, and without having done enough homework? Perhaps if you are going to do the sales yourself, you should take more time to understand the people you are speaking with and their motivations and needs before you launch into story-telling mode?

You mention your customers are selling more than half your vans for you now. How many people have asked simply, like we did, as to whether there was something in your range they could tow with their current vehicle? And you’ve spun them a similar story to what you’ve delivered to us? How many of them rushed out and got themselves a truck versus how many of them are now bad mouthing their experience with Bushtracker for their clumsy and possibly also ill-informed “honesty”? Bad press works even more effectively than good press, but I’m sure you know that already?

As I stated in my last e-mail, we are more than happy with our current tow vehicle, and wanted to know what in your range we could feasibly tow behind it.

You mention the Toyota Landcruiser 100, and the 80 (only make 78 now it seems), as well as Nissan Patrol and Landrover Discovery and Defender (I presume you mean this rather than just Rover as you wrote?) and of course the F250 as usual tow horses for your product. I didn’t ask what usually pulls Bushtrackers. Interesting to note that if these are the tow vehicles of choice, then you must make a Bushtracker that weighs less than 1000kg for Landrovers to tow off road?

It’s NOT just about power, BUT more to do with Wheelbase? Your Landcruiser due to it’s wheelbase is at it’s limit pulling 21’ you state. Your Landcruiser is only 30 millimetres longer in the wheelbase than my X5! Not 6 inches shorter as you state in your note. And the Landrover products are SHORTER again than the X5. Then again. there is no way that I’d try to pull 3500kg with a Landrover on anything but a flat road on a dry day with absolutely no wind! 

Also, 3500kg is not over a tonne more than 2700kg. Even my arithmetic shows me that it is only 800kg more towing capacity! Unless you’re also adding the difference in GVM of 455kg?

Now, shall we start again? Or shall we take our miserable X5 off and look at the road touring options of your “competitors”?

Welcome to 2004.

Thanks for your attention,

Tell me which bit makes YOU want to buy one?

As expected, it was us who had it wrong. Steven was only trying to look after our best interests. Rather than agree that the towing figures that I had researched and gathered off the web and at dealerships were actually accurate, and that his argument is flawed Steven now chooses a different tack. The bolding and underlining in the following were what Steven included in his mail.

From: Bushtracker [mailto:sales@bushtracker.com]
Sent: Monday, 5 January 2004 11:28 AM
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Bushtracker Lifestyle

Mike,

I did not talk down your X5.  I answered a lot of email, on my time off, to try and help people.

You are the one in a hundred exception in taking the information so poorly, and you have sent a blast to the only one interested in taking care of your safety and well being.  You mixed two impossible situations together, in talking 20' vans and your X5.  I only indicated the reality of the subject.  While we could build you a van at 17' or maybe even 18' at just under or over 2 tonne, you would have to be careful how much you loaded it up with personal gear, tools, water, etc.  There is an engineering reason the X5 has a lower tow rating, they don't just pick it out of a hat. 

You seem to want someone to pander to you and tell you what you want to hear.  We will not do that.  We make every effort to do the right thing by our Clients... As to going to our Competitors, that is laughable.  First of all, if you knew how we built our vans you would know by now that we do not have any competitors... And if you buy one of their vans you will find that it is not the quality or happiness that you will have achieved.  You will infact spend the rest of your time going around knowing you made a grave mistake.  We are the best, we are not greedy, we look after people properly, and will only do the right thing by people.   

So, you can keep your sarcasm.  It is you that told me you wanted 20' to 21', and that is not compatible with your tow vehicle.  I sent you on the excercise about wheelbase, for your own safety and future success, if you did indeed need a 20-21' van and had to change tow vehicle.  At least if that was the case, you would have the proper engineering information to make the correct choice.   

 For my efforts, you have sent back a blast that is not well received by someone that was just trying to help you...  If you want someone to tell you what you want to hear, and someone just to take your money for an inferior product, and not care about your future safety or success... Then go to someone else.....  I wrote to you, reading your message, with repeated reference to 20-21' and that was not compatible with your vehicle.  

I have done my best to help you with the correct engineering perspective of the concerns for vehicle choices in "off road".  You have to greatly reduce your van requirements or change vehicle.  In either case, you should realize that you are talking to what is probably the only person in the industry that would have looked after your own best interests.  

stg at Bushtracker

Conclusion 

Maybe it's just me, but if I were running any business that relied on sales, I'd be doing my darnest to make sure I knew what the customer wanted before I did anything else. Only after I had a complete handle on what would satisfy their needs would I launch into any spiel about my products.

Steven has done nothing to convert us into a sale by his approach. 

Support for the Bushtracker argument

Well it does look like I've got it all wrong? Karen chose to set me straight and copy Bushtracker that she was fighting their cause. (I wonder if they gave her a free Bushtracker for her efforts?)

From: Karen
Sent: Thursday, 15 April 2004 10:30 PM
To: mbg@bigpond.net.au
Cc: sales@bushtracker.com
Subject: BUSHTRACKER EMAILS

Dear Mike, I have read the Emails that you have sent to Bushtracker and I thought I would respond to your question of  "do you take offence to anything I have said in my email to Bushtracker". I feel that you were very harsh on someone who is primarily a manufacturer and not a retailer. Steven has obviously gone to great lengths to try to address your Emails, a reply of the caliber that Steve has sent to you would take hours to piece together. I am also a Jayco owner, but only because that is what I can afford, the Bushtracker product is one of the best examples of what is left of Australian manufacturing and development that I have ever seen. I feel that your forked tongue response to Steve's efforts to try to answer your minefield of questions was totally inappropriate.

I to would have lost track in answering your emails, the questions posed are a minefield and I feel that you would be a very difficult person to satisfy. Steve would in your case been far safer to answer you with one line answers like most traditionally lazy salespeople would have. Instead he has tried to answer you with detail and passion that could only come from years of experience in the industry. Unfortunately technology has not yet enabled us to know that we are about to receive an email from a Rocket Scientist with far to much time on his hands.

Steve I respect you and your product and I can only hope that I can one day afford to be the proud owner of a "Land Yacht". Please do not let over cashed wankers ever take the passion and drive from you and what you have achieved, they are simply not worth the time or effort. This guy has that much time on his hands that he has a Webb site telling the world about how difficult a person he is to please. You on the other hand, I would virtually guarantee, would be time staved trying to build and market your product. The last thing you would need is to be wasting time on a guy like this. Someone please shoot me if I ever get like this guy.

I wish you well with your plans to get your land yacht Karen, and either the taste for a little one, or the funds to be able to afford the F250 or Dodge Ram together with the fuel bill and maintenance costs that goes with that combination. In our case, we didn't like either of those combinations.... But that's the bane of a rocket scientist's existence perhaps?

Perhaps the other thing you should keep in mind if you read the whole thing is that Steven makes use of "cut and paste". He has standard blurbs that are glued together. The initial e-mail he sent was almost word-for-word straight from the version of the website that was up at the time. There are some repeated paragraphs in the above. Yes, there's a lot of information that has been sent, but it was not churned out specifically for the exchange that was had.

Even more support, and some more name calling 

Mike

what a tool u r.

the bloke could easily have set u up with something u couldnt safely tow, but instead he wasted his time and nrg trying 2 open your eyes.

and dont kid yourself, your bmw can go in the outback it just wont survive if you try 2 go off road.........

cubaz

So now we are further enlightened. As well as being the over cashed wanker rocket scientist that Karen observed, it seems I'm also a tool. Thanks for this insight, but for the record I don't recall wanting to take the BMW off road in anything that was written above, nor was I ever after an off road caravan. Thanks also for the observation about Steven trying to open my eyes. He did, in fact, do that!

Perhaps all the other rocket scientist tools that are after a lighter weight touring land yacht and come across this page will be enlightened enough not to waste Steve's time and annoy him further?

I have never doubted nor questioned the build quality of the Bushtracker product. Every owner of the product that we have met have all been very happy with the van. The only negative comment any of them have ever made has always been to do with the weight of the van. We also walked past a Landcruiser and Bushtracker combination one day that the owner was looking to trade in. We overheard the reason he wanted to trade in as "he loves it and all, but it just weighs too much".

Maybe I wasn't totally wrong after all? 

From: Ian
Sent: Friday, 12 August 2005 12:34 PM
To: mbg@bigpond.net.au
Subject: TOOL

No Mike!, 

You are not a tool!

Like me after reading & rereading the threads you have wound up frustrated at not getting the information you requested.  

I found your queries to be staight forward. The clarifications one would need prior committing to trip from the southern states to the factory, you stated quite clearly what your tow vehicle was, together with the fact that you did not wish/need to get far, far into the bush. You got lots of perambulations, lots of sales pitch and declarations about bits you did not ask but not the requested info.

Ian.

Thanks Ian for something positive about what is presented above. The folk that buy the product either love them or hate them. Those that hate them all seem to have the same complaint – “they weigh so much”….. I just ponder how a person gets way off the beaten track with such a dead weight behind them…If I had a "real" 4x4, I still wouldn’t like to pull one of them along behind me in either mud or sand. But maybe I’m just cynical these days.

For the record, the original Webform filled in on December 26th must have had our postal address included as the impressive glossy Bushtracker catalogue arrived in early April. It is visible on the Bushtracker website. The catalogue is a nice job Steven!

Further update - my cousin also checks this site a bit and she told me that I was also "rough on the guy from Bushtracker", although she also admits she has no idea what the actual issue is.

Another person providing feedback has the view that Steven just didn't "get the point", and was more interested in making a point than trying to understand why his wheelbase argument had a large hole in it.

Every so often someone happens across this page and points it out on a forum. If Steven is monitoring that forum he has usually written that "... the idiot (or similar reference to me) has left out a whole lot of text from his e-mails to make it sound better...". There is nothing doctored here, and the only things not included are the pictures he originally sent in his first reply, and the e-mail header information. All text is a pure cut and paste.

I have also started (but yet to publish) a page on what the physics of towing is all about from what I've found to date.